Power and Prestige

[Goat]

I really like my assassin. I really, really do.

It's fun being able to, on occasion, completely gank an NPC.

However, I feel like he's becoming progressively more useless. If I had made him a wizard, then he'd be casting things like firebrand, stoneskin, black tentacles and haste. A cleric would have extended Divine Powers and slay living.

Simply put, my 30-ish HP assassin can't face any spawned encounters. I just blew several hundred GP worth of traps AND started with a sucessful Death Attack, and I wasn't able to kill a single baddie before going down.

Now, I'm not saying "Nerf Spellcasters." I'm saying "Buff non-spellcasters." If you buff up the prestige classes for non-spellcasters, you can even have NPCs taking advantage of PC classes without becoming overwhelmingly powerful.

A shadowdancer could get bonuses to dexterity at certain intervals. Weapon Master's Ki Attacks could auto-hit. Dwarven Defenders could get a boosted CON score, or more uses of their defensive stance. Assassins could have a random chance of triggering Death Attack. Divine Champion might get access to Strength and War cleric domains. Whatever. Isn't it cooler to give non-magic-users fun toys, instead of spending all day trying to figure out how to make a cleric weaker?

[Goat]

For the record, I'm not just talking about soloing. My rogue/assassin has been taken below 0 in four of his previous seven fights, WITH party members.

[Goat]

Heck, I'll help with the scripting! Point me in the direction of sneak attack, I'll set something up!

[Nodata]

Things like Death Attack and Sneak Attack are hard coded into the engine. The problems you're having are just your typical rogue problems. They're good when they're not the focus of an attack, but don't really have the HP to stand up to an attack like the other classes do. I suggest using scrolls more often for buffs and defenses.

[Goat]

"Why not give non-spellcasters some cool toys?"

"Well, you could try casting some spells."

[Goat]

It's impossible to have both Death Attack and Divine Wrath on simultaneously. So, surround Divine Wrath with

object check = OBJECT_SELF;
int classcheck= GetLevelByClass(CLASS_TYPE_DIVINECHAMPION,check) ;

if (classcheck != 0)
{
[Divine Wrath], return;
}
else
{
GetLevelByClass(CLASS_TYPE_ASSASSIN, check)
if (check != 0)
{
[On hit daze property applied to weapon, DC based on assassin class levels and intelligence bonus. You could base this off of darkfire, or bladeweave from NWN2. Maybe some concealment bonus for the assassin at higher levels, with a check on poison resist feats.], return;
}
}
return;

If that on-hit daze thing doesn't work on nwn2, I'm sure there's an effectstun or effectparalyze that could be substituted. Bam, assassins [divine wrath] number of times a day can wreck stuff, without relying on trying to be a wizard to survive.

[Goat]

Or, hey, don't want to use the extra feats? Add it to assassin's ghostly visage. Whatever. Again, if you don't have the time, tell me various things you want, and I'll do the scripting. I can even send you the base code, so you don't have to worry about me trying to sneak stuff in.

[Nodata]

The problem is, I think the Assassin/Rogue class is pretty well balanced as it is. There's no realy NEED to change anything about either of the classes.

However, they're pretty reliant on gear as well. More of which you'll pick up as you explore more of the world. I've still got a lot of tweaking to do to chest drops in harder areas etc.

[Goat]

One, I'm not talking about just assassins. And two, again, on a low magic server, your responses have been "Try casting spells" and "Get magic gear."

I'm talking about an alternative to that, a way for classes to not need to be incredibly lucky or rich to face a spellcaster. Inherent bonuses that scale with level, just like the spellcasters. You could lessen their reliance on spells and equipment.

[Goat]

"I think the Assassin/Rogue class is pretty well balanced as it is"

and

"they're pretty reliant on gear"

just don't work well together.

[Nodata]

Dually noted.

[Zombie Ninja]

That's a little selfish, and inaccurate goat. All....let me repeat....ALL melee classes are heavily gear dependant.

It's not just rogue/assassin. This is the bane of Low Magic servers, but also the Boon.

If you want to kill that wizard, stealth and follow him around til he rests or his buffs wear off etc. Be a ROGUE.

Don't think hey this isn't fair, I can't take a wizard 1v1. You probably never will be able to....not even with any weapon buff.

If he starts giving stuff to assassin just to buff it, then he has to revisit all melee PRC's. Have you looked at Dwarven Defender or Harper Scout? Those two are pretty epicly lack-luster.

You get death attack....chance to paralyze victim for like 2 REAL LIFE minutes on your first Sneak....Have an exit strategy planned....do your death attack then cast darkness from your racial ring, then run away...if it fails of course.

I mean it is VERY possible you built your character wrong, what are your stats?

We had an assassin in closed testing that was very very strong. He could pump massive dmg out, and didn't hardly ever get hit in a party fight.

While solo'ing, he trapped everything up, and stuff never got a hit on him.

[Goat]

Jesus jumping Christ on a cracker. How about I quote a few things I've said?

"A shadowdancer could get bonuses to dexterity at certain intervals. Weapon Master's Ki Attacks could auto-hit. Dwarven Defenders could get a boosted CON score, or more uses of their defensive stance. Assassins could have a random chance of triggering Death Attack. Divine Champion (sic: I meant champion of torm)might get access to Strength and War cleric domains. Whatever. Isn't it cooler to give non-magic-users fun toys, instead of spending all day trying to figure out how to make a cleric weaker?"

"One, I'm not talking about just assassins. And two, again, on a low magic server, your responses have been "Try casting spells" and "Get magic gear."

This isn't much of a thread, and you guys keep missing that, yes, I am talking about more than the assassin. And, yes, I've thought about the Dwarven Defender and the Harper Scout.

There's already many things about this server that aren't NWN rules, or, hell, D&D rules. The ECL rules, as implemented, are different from the suggested LA rules. Pale Masters are human only, and they get unique spells. You're already changing things, but every time a non-spellcaster is brought up as something to be altered, it's suddenly "No, _______ doesn't work that way."

Again, on a low magic server, the primary suggestions for balancing power is magic gear(which helps clerics and wizards just as much), and using spells (which clerics and wizards don't have to pay for). Oh, and, even though I've mentioned other classes multiple times, apparently I'm only concerned about assassins.

The earliest a Champion of Torm gets Divine Wrath is level 13. 7 of a full BaB class, then 5 levels of CoT. So, 5+cha ROUNDS a day, he gets a couple of damage points, a few points of attack, and 5/+1 damage resistance. Who'd ever play a CoT?

I'm saying you've got the opportunity to approach low-magic balance from the other side: rather than picking and choosing individual spells to make weaker, make other classes less gear reliant. You can even keep it to prestige classes: I bet you someone'd take CoT if Divine Wrath scaled reasonably well compared to spells. Maybe put it equal to stoneskin, and a couple spell buffs, for several turns rather than rounds.( Heck, make it stack with buffs, so a cleric might buff HIM instead.)

Dwarven Defender? Give'm a lot more uses of defensive stance. Give'm some stat bonuses. Give'm great fort./ref./will. Give them something so that they're not universally worse than Clerics.

Look over the non-spellcasting classes, even just prestige classes, and say "Is there a way I can power this up, while keeping true to the flavor of the class?"

"Be a ROGUE. Follow them until they make a mistake. Hope they rest alone. Follow them for, say, 10 minutes without being seen, while they're by themselves, until they rest." In other words, cross your fingers and hope that the person is going to make a series of very silly mistakes.

The spellcaster classes don't have to draw an exact path to the "correct" build. You can make a melee cleric with 6 strength. Or an archer cleric. A pure spellcaster. If you play your cards right, you can do all the above.

I just think it's pretty silly to go "Well, nonspellcasters are always gonna suck. I mean, we could buff them up, but... eh. They'll always be worse."

Again, I'll do some of the work. We can discuss ways to make other classes less reliant on gear, rather than say "Isn't wanting to be better than a cleric at the job your entire class is focused on a bit on the selfish side?

[Goat]

Sorry if that's all a bit pissy. The first response I got for "noncasters are more useful even in groups" was "get into a group instead of going solo" (I really don't like to solo). The first response I got to "The way things are, nonspellcasters are reliant on magic gear and scrolls" was "Have you been using scrolls? There's magic gear you can purchase, too."

Then "Hey, why do you keep talking about only assassins" when I'm talking about all these noncaster classes. It's a bit frustrating.

[Zombie Ninja]

Well if we're going to be 100% honest here, then, here's this. This is a RP server, you can't make a RP character then whine and bitch about it not being super pvp oriented.

If you are having problems, ask for advice, or tips, don't just be like hey this needs a buff, or let's do this. I mean, make suggestions, absolutely, but to disregard advice when it's given to you is not wise.

And NO, a melee cleric with 6 strength is an utter failure, and will be perpetually encumbered....I.E. very slow moving target.

Bow Cleric is equally noobish for pvp. All characters....ANY build, has RolePlay Merit. But not all characters and builds are strong for pvp.

There are perks and drawbacks to every single class, you name one, i'll list some perks and drawbacks for it.

The classes ARE fairly balanced assuming no one is pre-buffed.

If a caster is pre-buffed, you might as well hang it up, unless you can dispel. So yes, no melee(without a caster buffing them) is going to EVER stand up to a fully buffed caster(Unless they can dispel). Sorry, that's D&D, not this server, or NWN.